The Ajax Experience: The Rest

Posted in the ajax experience by Kris Gray on October 15th, 2008

Day 2 was easily the most information packed and exciting of the 3 days.

IE8 was a Sponsor this year, yet their involvement was still quite small in the conference. They did have several speakers, but you can tell the conference is still being driven by the Sitepen (Dojo), Google (GWT, Chrome) and Mozilla (jQuery, etc) groups.

Faster then Light JavaScript

The opening talk was from Brendan Eich. Brendan is in a strange situation where is his the master and overlord of JavaScript, yet you can tell he’s a bit more intellectual then the typical JavaScript guru. He focuses a lot about lower language constructs and less about closures and the like, which is just kind of weird.

 

  • Tracemonkey
    • Incrementally Rewritten to be much faster
    • Now fast as almost anything.
  • V8, SpiderMonkey
    • Both are very fast and really good codebases.
    • Getting Close to C Speed
  • IE
    • Seaworthy (Showed picture of a beaten down houseboat)
    • Kind of missing in the JavaScript performance arena. 
  • Whats it all mean?
    • Browsers get near native JS Performance
    • Mobile browsers too, without sucking massive amounts of power
    • IE being guilted/pressured into getting better
    • Developers make your voices heard!
  • Canvas
    • Actual image processing capable
    • Ray Tracking Possible now, will be 3-4 times faster in 1 year
    • HTML5 Web Worker threads
  • On the Horizon
    • CSS Transformations
    • CSS3 Selectors
    • Border image
  • Trying to put SVG Back into the web (Though John Resig already voiced his doubts that without a hail mary miracle that SVG is pretty much a goner)
Analyzing Ajax Perf with IE8
I was very suprised that this was a Microsoft IE8 talk. It focused mainly on the new IE8 tools and how to use them to profile Ajax Applications.
  • Javascript Profiler in IE8! (Bet ya didn’t know that was coming)
    • Has an IE7 and IE8 Mode
    • Has an API with documentation on MSDN.
  • Native JSON Support
    • Global JSON object with methods to serialize and deserialize objects to and from JSON.
    • Great gains in performance with this object, 10x gain in Serialization, 3x gain in Parsing.
  • IE also has a good Script debugger with the profiler, which of course is 8 years late.
  • Check out more at the IEBlog
The Lightning Rounds
They had this new session setup this year where they have 10 different speakers with 5 minutes each. This was wonderfull, I wish they could do this for all of the sessions of the day so you can get a quick peek on whats going on.
  • Smushit.com – This tool will use different algorithims to shrink all the images on your site and tell you how much you could be saving with its version of your images instead. Awesome tool.
  • Dreamweaver – CS4 presentation, now has some serious JS abilities including native intellisense as well as third party library intellisense. 
  • Hacking Netflix – Bill Scott announced a new API for Netflix. He also showed off the Netflix blog which I’ve always been curious if they had one.
  • Interviewing JS Guru’s – He shows them code and asks them whats wrong with it. Really loves when the people see the XSS issue. Says finding developers with the never good enough Attitute is crucial. Also would like people to know about DNS, Page Caching, how CGI Works.
JSON SOA-Based Client/Server Application Development (slides)
A class based on Dojo communicating with the server REST style.
  • Dojo now has SMD’s (Simple Method Description – WSDL in JSON kinda) for Popular API’s. Allows you to instantiate an object with a supplied SMD and call methods on that remote service all from within Dojo. 
  • Full Rest Capabilities in Dojo for contacting these services
  • Dojo Secure
    • Framework for bringing together different services in a mashup
    • Adsafe
    • Not done yet, lots of work being put into this area of dojo.
  • No Premature Standardization
    • They don’t want innovation to be slowed by standards at this point.
This was a really content filled talk with many different areas being focused on, I ended up paying a lot of attention, understanding only half and getting notes on a quarter. 
State of the Browsers (slides available here)
PPK gave a talk about where we are with the browsers that was 70% relaxing, 30% informative. He started off going into the history of the browser wars, and then the maturation of the browsers through the years. 
  • NN4 and IE4 led to the browser wars of 96-99.
    • Divided the world, basicly you choose a browser and that was what you used. Now adays you choose a browser based mostly on the User Experience, but back then you choose it based on the features.
    • Deliberately incompatible. They wanted you to choose their browser because it had feature X and the other browser didn’t.
      • PPK said this didn’t work, I think he was refering to the fact that it didn’t work for us web developers, but it certainly worked for IE. 
  • These incompatibilities really hurt because if a site didn’t work, then it was the site owners fault. Even though the browsers made it so hard for site owners to get them to work in all browsers.
  • Ideology
    • MIcrosoft is EVIL!
      • Why? Just because. They built the better browser, they deserved to win.
    • Worst part of the browser wars.
  • IE Did deserve to win
    • IE 5 was a great browser, it had XMLHTTP.
    • Says nobody was using it at the time, though he wasn’t aware of the project I was on in 2000. 🙂
    • IE5 Mac did for CSS what IE5 Win did for Ajax, it really brought it to the forefront and showed it as a viable technology.
  • Browser Peace
    • Microsoft became complacent.
      • Quiet for 6 years!
    • Allowed other browsers to catch up
      • Firefox now 20-25%!
Here we got into some areas of the browsers  that are still really painfull.
  • Adding rules to Stylesheets
    • insertRule() for all but IE
    • add() for IE
  • Event Model
    • I’m sure you know about this already.
  • Ranges
    • Start / End container works in all but IE
    • Not possible in IE
  • Extensions
    • 99% of the extensions out there really suck
    • 1% are brilliant
      • :hover
      • innerHTML
  • Empty text nodes
    • We don’t need to iterate over empty text notes. Sucko!
    • Yet IE will sometimes display white space in the browser, so…
  • mouseenter/mouseleave
    • IE only extension
    • Great extension. The fact that all the JS libraries are including an implementation of it should tell the other browser manufacturers that we need this.
    • Not part of the standard, so not implemented.

I’m trying to get this out the door, so here’s some notes from the rest of the conference, very much abbreviated.

 

  • YUI Test was showcased. Check out more here.
    • Still looks a little more complicated then it should be.
    • I think John Resig mentioned a testing framework as a Firebug plugin. That sees like the way it should be.
  • Someone was using the tool Programmers Notepad, which seemed cool so I made a note of it.
  • UX Design for Ajax Apps
    • Design is how things work.
    • The Design of Everyday Things (Recommended Book)
    • Instructions don’t make things usable. 
    • Must do Research to determine usability.
      • Don’t ask customers what they want, find out what they do.
    • Universal Principles of Design (Another Highly Recommended Book)
    • Tool: Kuler – Generates color palletes
    • Don’t Pretend
      • Pretending to be the user means your pretending to be stupid, which just isn’t possible. Clients aren’t stupid in general, just when dealing with whatever you happen to develop/design.
      • Pretend instead to be the application.
  • Performance from Yahoo
    • Amazon did a test and added a 100ms delay to the loading of their site. They experienced a 1% drop in sales as a result.
    • Yahoo did another test, adding 400ms to their load time, they recieved 5-9% drop in full page traffic.
    • Google, same thing, +500ms to their load time, 20% fewer searches.
    • Get YSLOW! It was an overarching theme of the session.
    • Flush the buffer early if you can, gets the browser working while the server does the rest of its work.
    • Use GET for Ajax requests.
      • Only 1 TCP packet is sent with GET
      • Post sends a headers, and posts body seperately and has a lot more content.
    • Post-load components
      • Whats absolutely necessary to render the page?
      • User percieves site is loaded after site looks visiually loaded. 
      • JS can load in after site looks visually complete.
    • Pre-load components (3 Different types)
      • Unconditional: Google preloads its results images on the google search page.
      • Conditional: On search typing, start preload of images.
      • Anticipated: Anticipating new release? Start pushing out those images for the next release early so the users cache isn’t completely empty.
    • Avoid Filters (AlphaImageLoader)
      • Blocks Rendering of the page.
      • Increases memory consumption
      • New filter per usage, not per page.
      • Avoid completely if you can.
      • Use PNG8, works just fine, no grey background, but boolean transparency only.
    • PNG8 Does support alphatransparency, and in IE8 the alpha-transparent bits will show as completely transparent. Didn’t understand how to get this to work though, they were vague on it.
    • IPhone
      • Total Cache 1024k
      • 25kb limit on a single file no longer exists.
    • Look out for your users (Don’t hurt your users speed)
    • Harvest low hanging fruit
    • Balance features with speed
      • They explained this as, balance the perf budget.
    • Verify Assumptions!
    • Make Perf part of your process.
    • Measure and track results
      • Firebug
      • IBM Page Detailer
      • YSLOW
      • Gomez
      • Smushit.com
    • Ask Questions and Challenge answers
And thats the end.
I had so little time this year during the conference to get all this typed up that it just ended up dragging on. Hopefully I can fix that next year.
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The Ajax Experience Day 1

Posted in the ajax experience by Kris Gray on September 30th, 2008

Another year another Ajax Experience. I’m certainly lucky that my company sees the benefits of these events and is willing to send me to them. I think I’ve learned a bunch from my last event and hope that I can present the information in an easier fashion.

Keynote

This was a pretty similar keynote to the one last year. 

  • There was a brief mention of UX being crucial to the evolution of great, but no more follow up.
  • Ben and Dion did this thing where they setup a random buzzer and when it sounded they would trade off on who was speaking. Sure kept things interesting. 
  • More of a hello, this stuff is exciting talk.
Google Chrome
Its interesting that this year seams to be the year of the JavaScript engine. It was a big reason for the conception of a new browser on behalf of google. 
  • Started the browser project 2 years ago, when JavaScript engines weren’t getting a lot of attention.
  • Based on the rendering engine of WebKit. They liked webkit because it was fast.(May have been some other reasons but they escape my memory)
  • 3 Core principals (Stability, Performance, Developer Friendly)
  • Plan to continue development with those 3 principals in mind.
  • No never ending alert box
  • Use the nightlies, they haver lots of good stuff in them.
  • Linux and Mac are first class citizens in terms of importance, they just aren’t releasable yet.
Top 10 Cross Browser Issues
I was like 5 minutes late to this session so I didn’t catch the introductions, there was some good content in here that I’m just not going to be able to get to detailed on.
  • Dropping support for Safari 2. Doesn’t have good accessibility capabilities. 
  • Most on the panel agreed there are 2 main levels of support. Primary which means we want everything working perfectly in that browser, and the others where if its crashing we’ll fix it, otherwise maybe we’ll think about it.
  • There was a lengthy talk about browser detection vs feature detection. With jQuery moving to feature detection John was in the camp that if you do feature detection then you have future browser support. 
  • When do you begin testing a browser release seriously? Beta.
  • What browser inconsistencies do you despise the most? (No way to detect if an event is implemented, Rich text editors, accurate attribute values back from IE–href, HasLayout)
  • What JS Library would you suggest if you couldn’t suggest your own. (Prototype guy: jQuery, Dojo Guy: Goo, Yahoo Guy: jQuery, JohnResig: Prototype)
  • Would you ever consider consolidating the libraries? Not suprisingly dojo has already been doing this, the other libraries didn’t say anything.
That was the end of Day 1. Day 2 is 12 hours of learning fun, so I’ll have lots more to cover.
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Reflections from The Ajax Experience

Posted in the ajax experience by Kris Gray on October 29th, 2007

Aza Raskin is one of my new heroes. I talked to him a little bit and was able to get some stuff ironed out in my head that I was really uncertain about.

I was curious about the people necessary to make a killer UI. As it is, we have 2 technical people, and 1 designer. The designer is doing some great stuff, but he’s still in the designer arena. Which is not necessarily taking into account the issues Bill Scott was talking about. We really need a User Interface designer, which is totally different then a Web designer, and ideally we would all be abstracted by an Information Architect. As it seems unlikely to me that we are going to hire either of the missing two players to our little team (the UI designer and architect) we will need to mix responsibilities a bit. As it stands any member of the team can become a UI Designing expert, but if its the designer he will have no checks beyond his own conscience for his designs. Where if it was me, I would be able to check the designer, but would have the confliction that I don’t want things that are hard to develop. (And things that we don’t know how to do we always consider hard, thus I would subconsciously be removing features I don’t know how to do from the pipeline)

It wasn’t until the SmartClient demo, and even OpenLaslo possibly (I only caught the tail end of this demonstration but it seems like the same idea) that we are neglecting our SaaS advantages. The only benefit you get right now is that installation is super easy, we just provide you with a login and your ready. Yet you can’t get at your data with customizations in any serious fashion, negating any benefit these tools might have brought to you.

So I was thinking about Offline Ajax today and realized that in some situations you just won’t want to use it. An offline Gantt would be nuts, any changes you made would cascade through the system and with its offline delayed nature, you would get massive conflicts. Its possible for a company to lose at least a whole days work to hard working PM who did a bunch of planning offsite in the morning and then synced back up at the end of the day.

Yet for personal applications, something that conflicts are much less of interest, you probably can’t wait for this. Google Docs, wonderful. I am curious if they have Google Docs implemented already, it seems like such a wonderful marriage between a product and a technology.

CSS, for all we hate about it just isn’t getting any love. It doesn’t have as many frameworks, it didn’t have many sessions (maybe just 1 that I know of), and the majority just despise it. I think Aaron Gustafson dismissed me as a piton after I re-iterated my opinion that CSS isn’t good. CSS is a third of what we need to work with, and it seems we are just ignoring it.

This area is still so young. Name recognition wise, the big names were all here. The creator of Selenium, the creator of jQuery, the writer of the AJAX for Enterprise Applications book, a member of the W3C, a member of the ECMAScript specification team, and just a slew of guys who have really pioneered the area that everyone is so mushy over.

Be careful which session you step into. Some of the sessions were people telling you about why the world needs a certain technology, and then would proceed to describe why their product is that exact technology. In the end, you know quite a bit about something called Thinwire, but unless you need their specific technology for your company then you’ve just wasted an hour.

We didn’t take full advantage of the raw brain power in the room. We had some of the brightest web minds in the world in one room, and we only spent about an hour having an open conversation.(two really, one each of the last two days) Sure I could go talk to these guys individually, but we need the group talks even more as I can take my comments and questions to email. I would have liked a room that was reserved all day for different conversations, first two hours CSS, then two hours of JavaScript, then two hours of SCRUM. Get it? Got it? Good.

We at eProject had originally intended to write our own bits of logic into our library so that we didn’t have an explosion of improper jQuery throughout our system. I have already seen the raw power of these libraries in action through use, but after seeing some of the technical issues involved, and the massive brains on the developers of these libraries I’ve grown just a bit smarter to realize thats just insane. Why would I want to spend precious time re-writing something thats already 10x better then what I would ever write? McFly? McFly? Anybody home? Now it isn’t totally my call to let the bonds on jQuery go and let it propagate through our system, but when faced with a choice of having me spend several months to implement something thats already been done, or use whats out there, I don’t see how they could disagree.

We need to start doing usability testing on our UI’s, somehow before we become committed to them. This will certainly be something I’ll have to add to my plate if its decided I need to become the UI Designer or if it takes to long for us to get one. Right now, we hope what we implement is good, we try to stick to what we already do as much as possible so that we can rely on consistency and the belief that if it already exists and people don’t complain to much it must not be that bad.

I need to blog more, and better. I really enjoy getting a bunch of hits, its so much fun, and when I blog I get rewarded as such. When I don’t, nobody shows up to the party. Huh.

I want to become a Refactotum. Man this sounds great, and there were very positive comments in the class about the benefit a developer can get from programming for open source. My first target will be JSUnit if possible as I just HATE that it looks so lame. I think I can make some big contributions, since I use it so much it will be a positive production gain for the future.

I also want to get back to spending Fridays on non sprint tasks. Every friday I pick something that I want to improve in the eProject system, and dig in. Usually refactoring a component and documenting it would take about a day, and thats how we got a bunch of our current framework. The documentation needs to be better, I’ve tried to use it myself and ended up looking at the code. Booo!

Not enough testing sessions for sure. I was jazzed about both classes I went to, the Selenium class, and the overall QA which included a bit of selenium, jsunit, and random other topics on testing.

We need to test more, everyone knows that. I have this suspicion that we may not be as good as we think we are, and thus when they tell us to do something we don’t know exactly how we will do it, and what factors we should test. Then I think that, that is what design is for. Once we have a design we should no all the testing points, but we feel that its just faster at the moment to product a lot of code, have it smoke tested, and then move on.

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TAE: Day 3 – Ajax Futures Q and A

Posted in the ajax experience by Kris Gray on October 26th, 2007

Douglas Crockford – Yahoo
John Resig – Mozilla
Andre Charland – Nitobi
Aza Raskin – Humanized

There is a debate if Javascript needs to evolve, or if we need a large advancement in one version.

Resig
– A gradual step is important, mainly because the browsers just don’t adhere to the specifications that are laid out for them.

Charland
– Gradual is easier to sell and bite off, more likely to bring the community along with it.

Resig
– No upgrade path from ECMA 3 to 4. typeof(null) == object, but will return null. There shouldn’t need to be a significant upgrade between the current and next version of ECMAScript.

Mozilla is committed to providing a JavaScript 2 implementation as soon as possible after its released. Is this quick adoption a good thing?

Resig
-Its not just FireFox, lots of browsers are trying to quickly adopt and push out JS 2.

Crockford
– There will be an ECMAScript 4, but he hopes it doesn’t take the form it currently has proposed. Its to radical. Undoes the goals of the original design. Switches from prototypical to classical, loose to strongly typed. Javascript already won, we don’t need to add some stuff to it to make it the king, its already the lone royal family. We have a huge range of users in JavaScript, copy and pasters, as well as PH.D mathematicians, and we don’t want to leave any of these guys behind.  Version 2 doesn’t have a problem to solve, while persisting the issues of version 1. The two features with the worst performance are eval() and with().

Does mozilla have a response to these problems coming up in ECMAScript 4?

Resig
– It will help development and performance. He generally seems for it.

Browser innovation probably shouldn’t happen, the frameworks should do it. At least then we have cross-browser support. We should rely on the frameworks since we don’t want a repeat of the browser wars which are very disruptive.

Crockford
– The libraries are consolidating, they are beginning to look the same. Maybe in a year after they all converge to one point, we should refactor this logic into the browsers as the methodology has been decided.

Charland
– Agree’s, we have a lot of great libraries but developers need bits from all of them.

Resig (in response to Charland)
– We haven’t had to scramble after each of the latest browser releases. There hasn’t been many new features and there isn’t much that we have had to work around for each of the new browsers. XMLHTTP for local files has an issue so we had to backtrack on that, so they implemented one new feature and it was buggy. (a joke I’m sure)

Resig
– The difference between innovation now and later is that it used to be willy nilly, now we are on a path with some sign-posts.

Raskin
– The browsers releasing new versions gives them an opportunity to improve the browser features not just the DOM or CSS model. So new browser releases are good and we shouldn’t just despise them for possibly breaking new things.

Raskin
– Why do we need to have Javascript turned off? Why isn’t it javascript secure enough that people feel they have to turn it off to be safe? Lets get Javascript there.

Crockford
– There is no other environment where we have to plan for the possibility of our environment not being available.

Do you think there’s space for vendors in the AJAX space?

Charland
– Room for open source and proprietary solutions. Have to be careful what we open source, if they open source to much they may lose all thier income. They still sell ASP 3.0 licences (services he means maybe?) he’s amazed how many enterprises out there are doing creaky old things behind the firewall. Javascript was o`reilly’s subject of choice for books.

Missed question

Resig
– Some companies want to buy software, even though the top 4 frameworks are open source, they still want to pay for the library. Though why not use the library and pay for the support? Thats the dinosaur of corporate world.

If there was one specific thing we can get from MS for IE what would it be? And how would we get that?

Crockford
– The thing I would most like to get from IE is a kill switch. If we could kill IE 5.

Raskin, Charland
– A really good debugger, they NEED a firebug.

Resig
– A bunch of things would be nice, but there’s nothing in particular, I’ll just say a W3C compatible eventing model.

How?

Crockford
– Not quite sure.

Dion
– Google Gears *cough*

Crockford
– I agree, gears has great potential.

Multiple versions of the libraries?

Resig
– We’ve been looking at this strongly. If there is something we can do to make the common code-bases faster, lets do it. Caching javascript libraries in the program by version is a good idea, we’ll see.

Not understanded question, something about Flash, Flex and Silverlight.

Crockford
– We have to fix the web or it becomes irrelevant as a platform. As AIR could take over platform.

Why choose between the meekly supported SVG and Canvas if Flash is everywhere?

Resig
– Most browsers support it, mostly everyone (except ie). And I have been using it a lot.

Raskin
– Its tough for Flash to interact with the rest of the page. Things don’t lay over it well, we can’t script it easily.

Who wrote the ECMAScript 4 spec?

Crockford
– Adobe, Mozilla, Yahoo and Microsoft. The first to support it, the later two oppose it.

Resig
– Probably a better question for Brendon Eich.

Crockford
– I support them creating a new language, but if we are going to do that, don’t screw up Javascript while you do it. Just give us two languages. Goto Ecmascript.com and read the white-paper, then go to where it says participate then join the mailing list.

 If I misrepresented your opinion or misspelled your name please comment away.

4 comments

TAE: Day 2 – Ask the AJAX Experts

Posted in the ajax experience by Kris Gray on October 25th, 2007

This session is going to be insane, the information that I’m expecting may warp my fragile little mind.

The Experts
– Stuart Halloway, Relevance (Formerly CTO of Develop Mentor)
– John Resig, jQuery (Mozilla)
– Alex Russel, Dojo (SitePen)
– Aaron Gustafson, A List Apart (Easy Designs)
– Joe Walker, DWR

The questions.

How do you choose a framework?

Halloway
– A few years ago the advice was, get help somewhere. Now Prototype is his bag, but none do exactly what he wants, so he feels the need to mix and match.

Gustafson
– I use prototype, like everything what everyone else is doing.

Why do we need the diversity of frameworks? Should we be working on consolidating them?

Resig
– When you choose a framework your buying into its methodology of scripting. The features may be the same, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter.

Russel
– Dojo tried to bring all the developers under one roof and consolidating that inovation going forward, but they failed at that pretty miserably.

Stuart
– I want it all, I want small light weight, while also being able to get the full kitchen sink framework.
– Someone do RSpec in Javascript please! K thx.

Aside
Russel
– Get the guys together in one room and make some decisions. Get people to endorse libraries and to have them play well together.

Resig
– Libraries MUST work together. jQuery has concerned themselves in a militant way to working with other libraries. jQuery even works with older versions of jQuery because of this.

Are any of you going to be using browser plugins in your development? Or are you focused on the OpenWeb?

Stuart
– All open web, some customers request it, but he still hopes to use DOJO on those projects, atleast to extract the effort of flash development.

Gustafson
– Flash really excels at a lot of things, and has tremendious penetration. So it has a purpose, but there is not a reason to TRY to use Flash.

Are applets coming back?

Walker
– There is to big a hurdle to start adopting again, considered an old and legacy product. Joe turns it off in his browser.

Should we abandon CSS positioning in favor of Javascript Layout? (Whaa, JS Layout?)

Gustafson
-CSS isn’t broken, the multi-column module needs fixing (or maybe not, see comments), and there are some really nice things coming. You can do anything with CSS, it may have been convoluted, but you could still do it. (Ohh I got one I don’t think he can do. Damn footers) Javascript for layout is going to be all inline CSS, so he is against it.

Resig
– Keeping the seperation between JS and layout is very important.

Russel
– Doesn’t agree with Gustafson about how CSS isn’t broken. The Border box model is clearly correct, though the margin box model isn’t clearly wrong. I can see Alex trying to be civil while holding back his venom for CSS. Oh how many sleepless nights has it caused this poor man.

Gustafson
– Agrees that W3C is dysfunctional, CSS isn’t getting any progress. Most browsers allow you to do DOCTYPE switching to determine the box model you desire, some browsers have started trying to allow you to sepecify the box model in css. (Mozilla does this) If you need someone to complain to about CSS, Aaron Gustafson is your man. (wink wink).

Mixing and Matching different Toolkits with different formats. So GWT is tightly integrated with itself, what should we do to get it interacting with other frameworks?

Resig
– Uhhh, GWT?

Whats broken about CSS?

Russell
– So if we had the table layout module for CSS it wouldn’t be AS broken. CSS is kind of like Ant it works great for what its supposed to do, but horrible for things that it wasn’t expected for. No hooks, we can’t just abstract the problems with a framework like we did for the DOM.

Gustafson
– Variables would be cool sure, theres a battle between what designers feel comfortable with vs something a developer would feel comfortable with. Designers dont always fully understand variables.

Russell
– CAD made a transition similar.

Ben
– CSS is hard, we need a class on CSS just cause its complicated, not because people don’t understand it.

What are you guys doing to maintain the purity of Javascript?

Gustafson
– Worried about where JS 2 and HTML 5 are headed, excited that its maturing but scared it may mature into the ugly stepsister of the family.

Resig
– No expressiveness is being lost, you can still write things as you are now.

Russell
– Closures are great give us half of what we need, if we had continuations we’d be done, we could do what we wanted. But with JS 2 its to now focused and not acceptancing large changes. The inheritince sucks, you don’t want is a, you want has a.
– The language isn’t telling us what it needs, and we don’t fully know what it should be.

Why would you tie a client side scripting language to a server based framework? Such as DWR which is Java only.

Walker
– Realized he excluded 70% of the market by doing java only. He’s doing a job and doing it well.

Ben
– With something tightly integrated like DWR, you can make some assumptions.

Halloway
– GWT is the far end of the spectrum, not DWR. GWT uses the bad part of the java world, the language.

Where does SVG have a future in the different browsers?

Resig
-Mozilla has a lot of great things coming for SVG. Though Canvas is much more exciting.

Some CSS question, didn’t get the question and Gustafson basically said, it can already do it.

So thats about it, you can tell as developers we can discuss topics of soreness for a LONG time. They could have another discussion on CSS for at least 2 hours. It was definitely the sore point of the discussion.

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